User: AL Rubens, Location: Lake Mary Fl
Asked on: Monday, December 16, 2024 at 12:06 pm EST
Answered on: Thursday, March 6, 2025 at 6:23 am EST
Question: I have a problem without a solution yet. I installed an ADA Chair lift in my newly renovated pool for my wife therapy. I DO NOT have a corrosion problem but I have a scaling problem. The lift cylinder is 4” around the circumference x 36” long in the water at all times.The scaling built up starting last November once the pool renovation was completed & the lift installed. Although I have a pool heater my wife was reluctant to enter the pool during the winter months because of the atmospheric temperatures. It wasn’t until sometime this past May that I got in the pool & immediately recognized the problem.We had the pool operating as a salt pool initially but have since converted to a chlorine pool in an attempt to correct the problem to no avail.Forensic testing of the scale powder as removed from the cylinder as shown & report came back Calcite ( Calcium Carbonate). We are not & have not added any Calcium Carbonate to the pool water since it was filled. The water chemistry is pretty consistent on a daily basis. I have been testing the pool water daily since May 2024. My pool service company tests it weekly. The Ph continues to run on high side but I keep adding muriatic acid a few times a week to knock the Ph down into an acceptable range. The calcium hardness has never been over 320.I have been adding 2+ gallons of muriatic acid monthly to keep the Ph in range which is an excessive amount of acid.Everyone says the chemistry is good & should not be causing this problem. The lift metallurgy is 316 SS. In May of this year I purchased known 316 SS components along with 304 SS components and placed them in the water next to the lift. Once I removed the lift & removed the scale for a second time then reinstalled the lift started to scale up again within 24 HOURS!!The other SS parts DID NOT have any scale & remained smooth as i installed in the pool. I then sent a compliment of each of the SS components plus a section of a new piece of the cylinder off to the forensic lab to confirm the grade of SS for each component.The lift is 316 SS & pool light ring is 304 SS & they both scaled up in the pool water. However, the purchased SS components both 304 or 316 SS showed NO SIGNS of scaling since installed during month of May while within 24 HRS after placing the lift back in the pool scale started to form !They are now saying they believe it’s stray electrical currents. This past week we did a voltage check @ the light ring, stair rail, lift anchor sleeve embedded in the concrete in addition to about 4 other locations around the pool. All readings were consistent .0003 to .0005 with all power on around the pool & my house. We then shut all power off around the pool plus all power to my house & the readings were the same with 2200 ppm of salt remaining in the pool since we shut the salt system down.If it was a chemistry issue and or an electrical issue I would have expected the SS components I purchased & confirmed via forensic testing should have scaled up as shown in these two attachments but they DIDN’T !!!As you look @ these two attachments you are seeing the cylinder covered with scale ( feels like an even piece of sandpaper around the cylinder) & as I am removing the scale the shinny portion of the SS can be viewed. I have one brass fitting @ the base of the lift & that too is being attacked !Not too sure you have encountered an issue like mine but I would love to hear from you or any of your experts who can offer advice. My wife’s ADA lift is not operational until I solve this problem.Thanking you in advance,AL RubensLake Mary FLSent from
Al,This is a truly perplexing problem, and I can understand your frustration. You've done a remarkable job of documenting and investigating the issue, and the fact that you've eliminated so many potential causes makes it even more baffling.Let's break down what we know and explore some less common possibilities
Summary of Findings:
Scale Composition
Calcite (Calcium Carbonate)
Scaling Location
Primarily on the ADA lift (316 SS) and pool light ring (304 SS), but also affecting a brass fitting.
Scaling Rate
Extremely rapid; within 24 hours of reinstalling the lift after cleaning.
Water Chemistry
You are diligently managing pH and calcium hardness, although pH tends to drift high. Pool service company confirms acceptable levels. Conversion from salt to chlorine did not solve the problem.
SS Grades Verified
The lift cylinder material is confirmed to be 316 SS.
Control Experiment
316 SS and 304 SS samples immersed in the pool water show no scaling. This is a critical piece of evidence.
Stray Current Investigation
Voltage measurements appear to rule out stray electrical currents as a primary cause.
Timeline
Scaling began shortly after pool renovation and lift installation.
Unusual Acid Demand
You are using a high volume of muriatic acid to maintain pH.
Possible Causes and Considerations (Beyond the Obvious)
Given that you've ruled out many common causes, we need to consider factors specific to the lift and its environment.1.
Electrolytic Reaction (Even Without Stray Current)
Dissimilar Metals Proximity
You mentioned the brass fitting at the base of the lift. Even though you've tested for voltage, the presence of a dissimilar metal (brass) in close proximity to the 316 SS in an electrolytic environment (the pool water) could be setting up a localized galvanic corrosion cell, even without external stray current. This might accelerate calcium carbonate deposition on the 316 SS near the brass.
Mitigation
Thoroughly electrically isolate the brass fitting from the stainless steel. Use non-conductive fittings or a dielectric union. Consider replacing the brass fitting with a 316 SS fitting. You could apply a protective coating to the stainless steel cylinder that is compatible with submersion in chlorinated/salt water. The coating must be compatible with stainless steel and not react adversely with the pool chemistry.2.
Surface Condition of the Lift Cylinder
Passivation Layer
Stainless steel relies on a passive chromium oxide layer for corrosion resistance. If this layer is damaged or incomplete specifically on the lift cylinder, it could make the surface more susceptible to scale formation. The process of manufacturing the lift could have contaminated the surface.
Surface Roughness/Microscopic Imperfections
The cylinder's surface might have microscopic imperfections or roughness that create nucleation sites for calcium carbonate crystallization. The smoother, polished surfaces of your test pieces might not offer these nucleation points.
Remedies
Passivate the lift cylinder thoroughly with a citric acid passivation solution specifically designed for stainless steel. This will help restore and strengthen the passive layer. Make sure the product is safe for your pool environment. Follow manufacturer's instructions carefully. Consider lightly polishing the cylinder to reduce surface roughness. Be extremely careful not to damage the base metal during polishing.3.
Localized pH Variations Near the Cylinder
Micro-Environment
Even though your overall pool pH is managed, there could be localized pH spikes or alkalinity gradients right at the surface of the lift cylinder. This could be influenced by water circulation patterns or the surface chemistry of the 316 SS itself. Calcium carbonate precipitates more readily at higher pH.
Buffer Capacity
Consider the buffer capacity of your pool water. Is it possible that even small localized changes in pH near the cylinder surface could lead to scaling, even if the bulk water chemistry appears stable?
Testing
Attempt to measure the pH immediately adjacent to the cylinder surface. This may require specialized microelectrodes or pH paper carefully applied to the wet surface.4.
Water Circulation Patterns
Dead Zones
Is it possible that the area around the lift cylinder has poor water circulation, leading to a build-up of calcium and alkalinity?
Test
Check the circulation in the area of the cylinder and around the pool. You can use dye to confirm.5.
Specific Chemical Reactions with the 316 SS Cylinder
Manufacturing Residue
The manufacturing process for the lift cylinder might have left a residue on the surface that promotes calcium carbonate deposition. It is extremely important to eliminate this possibility since the purchased 316 SS did NOT scale up when installed.
Water Quality Issues
Look at the source of the pool water. Is it possible there are unusual trace elements or organic compounds in the water that are interacting with the 316 SS specifically to promote scaling?
Testing
Have the pool water analyzed for trace elements (phosphates, silicates, iron, manganese, etc.) and organic compounds.6.
Material Defect in the Cylinder
Manufacturing Defect
There might be a defect in the 316 SS of the cylinder (e.g., inclusions, compositional variations) that makes it more susceptible to scaling than the samples you tested. This is less likely, but possible.
Testing
This would require destructive testing of the cylinder, which is probably not feasible.7.
Check Your Acid Source
Contamination
Even muriatic acid, which is typically relatively pure, can sometimes be contaminated with trace elements that could contribute to scaling.
Try a Different Brand
Try using a different brand of muriatic acid from a different supplier. This is an easy way to rule out acid contamination as a factor.
Action Plan
Isolate the Brass Fitting
This is the first and simplest step. Replace it with a 316 SS fitting, or thoroughly electrically isolate it from the stainless steel of the lift.2.
Passivate the Lift Cylinder
Thoroughly passivate the entire cylinder with a citric acid-based passivation solution. Follow the manufacturer's instructions precisely.3.
Inspect and (Carefully) Polish the Cylinder
Examine the cylinder surface for any visible imperfections. If possible, carefully polish the surface to reduce roughness. Be very careful to not damage the surface in doing so.4.
Localized pH Measurement
Attempt to measure the pH directly adjacent to the cylinder surface.5.
Comprehensive Water Analysis
Have the pool water tested for a wide range of trace elements and organic compounds.6.
Test Alternate Acid Source
Try a different brand and source of muriatic acid.7.
Circulation Test
Perform the circulation test as mentioned above to see if there is a "dead spot" where the lift is located.8.
Consult a Metallurgical Expert/Corrosion Specialist
This is a complex problem, and it might be worth consulting a metallurgical expert or corrosion specialist who can analyze the situation in person.I know this is a lot to consider, but given the unusual nature of the problem, a systematic approach is necessary. The fact that your control samples didn't scale is the key clue. That means something specific to the lift cylinder itself, or its immediate environment, is driving the scaling.Good luck, and please keep me updated on your progress. I'm very interested to see how this resolves.
Disclaimer: I am an AI chatbot and cannot provide professional engineering or metallurgical advice. The suggestions above are based on my knowledge and understanding of the situation, but you should consult with qualified professionals for specific recommendations.* Flag for review