User: TwoBlocked, Location: Bradford County, PA
Asked on: Wednesday, January 1, 2025 at 9:52 am EST
Answered on: Thursday, March 6, 2025 at 6:50 am EST
Question: Been wondering just what was going on with a system. Unfortunately, it's one of those situations where there are too many fingers in the pot, so I've stepped back until called again.This is a water transfer system with a small priming pump feeding a large pressure pump. Both are centrifugal, and both are on VFDs. The priming pump is a powerflex. There is no pressure indication between the pumps. The priming pump always has at least 5 ft of suction head. How the speed command is determined, I don't know, not sure it matters for my question.Got called out because the priming pump was tripping on overcurrent. FLC = 38A. Changed parameter A179 to 30A and A182 to 1 (Clim). Tried to operate system and got a Stall Fault. Seemed really odd, since it's a centrifugal pump. How could it stall? Anyhoo, Changed parameter to 37A and it worked ok and left. Later, I heard that on occasion it would still trip out on Stall Fault, but what I did seemed to improve things. In the meantime, someone else got into the program, so who knows what's going on there...Soooo, It's likely that I will get involved again. Hoping some of you fine folks can educate me on what might be going on. Could it be that the VFD drive sensed a great deal of slippage when reducing the hz to limit the current and called it a stall? Maybe a mechanical issue?
You're right, a stall fault on a centrifugal pump seems counterintuitive. Here's a breakdown of potential causes and things to consider
Understanding the Problem
The key is to understand what a "stall" fault means to a VFD. It typically indicates: Sudden and Significant Loss of Motor Speed While Under Load
The drive is trying to maintain speed (based on its command), but the motor's actual speed is dropping dramatically, indicating a mechanical overload or a problem with torque production.
Possible Causes and Troubleshooting Steps1. Mechanical Issues
This is the FIRST place to look, even though it's a centrifugal pump.
Clogged Suction or Discharge
This is the most common culprit. Debris can restrict flow, increasing the load on the pump and causing it to struggle. Even partial obstructions can significantly affect performance. Check suction strainer/foot valve, and discharge piping.
Worn Impeller or Pump Internals
Over time, centrifugal pump components can wear down, reducing efficiency and requiring more torque to maintain flow. Look for cavitation damage, worn clearances.
Binding or Seizing
While less likely in a clean water system, check for any signs of the pump shaft binding or seizing. This could be due to bearing failure, scale buildup, or other debris.
Pump Mismatch
Is the pump actually suitable for the application? Has the system demand changed? Is the pump running too far off its design point (way too little flow, cavitation; way too much flow, overcurrent)?
Coupling Issues
Check the coupling between the motor and the pump for slippage or damage.2.
VFD Settings
Stall Torque/Speed Settings
You're already looking at this. Increasing the stall current threshold (what you did) can mask an underlying problem, but in this case it helped temporarily. Review all stall-related parameters in the VFD manual. Look at the stall acceleration/deceleration settings as well. The VFD might be too sensitive.
Current Limit/Overload
Lowering the current limit can trigger a stall fault if the pump needs more current to overcome a load.
Acceleration/Deceleration Rates
If the acceleration rate is too fast, the motor might not be able to keep up, leading to a stall fault during startup. Conversely, a deceleration rate that's too fast could cause the motor to stall if the load is high. Try slower ramp-up and ramp-down times in the VFD settings.
V/Hz Ratio
The voltage to frequency ratio determines the torque output of the motor. If the ratio is incorrect, the motor might not be able to produce enough torque at lower speeds. Review the VFD manual for proper V/Hz settings.
Motor Data Entry: Review motor voltage, current, speed, and horsepower rating entry to make sure that it matches the nameplate of the motor.3. Electrical Issues
Motor Insulation Failure
A partially shorted winding can draw excessive current and reduce motor torque. Use a megohmmeter to test the motor insulation resistance.
Loose Connections
Check all electrical connections in the motor, VFD, and control panel. Loose connections can cause voltage drops and intermittent faults.
Power Supply Issues
Unstable or low voltage can affect the VFD's performance and lead to a stall fault.
Harmonics
High levels of harmonic distortion on the power line can interfere with the VFD's operation and cause erratic behavior.4.
Pump/System Hydraulics
Air Entrainment
Air in the suction line can drastically reduce pump performance and cause it to draw excessive current as it fights to pump a mixture of water and air. Ensure proper venting and check for air leaks.
Suction Lift/Head
Even with 5 ft of suction head, verify that this is sufficient for the pump at the required flow rate. Too much lift can lead to cavitation and reduced performance.
Discharge Head
Is the pump working against an excessive static head (elevation difference)? Has the discharge piping been modified?5.
Control Issues (Speed Command)
Erratic Speed Command
The control system sending the speed command to the VFD could be malfunctioning, causing the pump to suddenly slow down or stop, triggering a stall fault. Monitor the speed command signal and compare it to the actual pump speed.
Feedback Loops
If the speed command is based on a feedback loop (e.g., pressure), there might be oscillations or instability in the loop that are causing the pump to hunt and stall.
Troubleshooting Steps and Recommendations1. Gather Data
Operating Logs
Review any operating logs or trend data to see if there's a pattern to the stall faults. When do they occur? Under what conditions?
VFD Fault History
Download the fault history from the VFD to see the exact parameters at the time of the stall.
System Conditions
Note suction/discharge pressures (if available), flow rate (if available), motor current, and motor speed at various operating points.2.
Isolate the Problem
Run the Pump at Fixed Speeds
Bypass the automatic control system and run the pump at various fixed speeds using the VFD keypad. This can help determine if the stall fault is related to the control system or the pump itself.
Disconnect the Load
If possible, disconnect the pump from the driven load and run the motor unloaded. This will help determine if the problem is with the motor or the pump. Be extremely careful doing this with a pump. Running a centrifugal pump without flow is generally a bad idea!
Monitor Current and Speed
Use a clamp meter and a tachometer (or the VFD's display) to monitor the motor current and speed while the pump is running. Look for sudden drops in speed or spikes in current.3.
Inspect the Pump and System
Visual Inspection
Carefully inspect the pump, piping, and valves for any signs of damage, leaks, or obstructions.
Pump Performance Test
Perform a pump performance test to determine the pump's flow rate and head at various speeds. Compare the results to the pump's performance curve to see if the pump is operating correctly.4.
Adjust VFD Settings (Carefully)
Document Original Settings
Before making any changes to the VFD settings, document the original settings so you can easily revert back if needed.
Stall Settings
Slightly increase the stall current and/or speed threshold. But remember, this is a band-aid, not a fix.
Acceleration/Deceleration
Adjust the acceleration and deceleration rates to see if that resolves the issue.
V/Hz Ratio
Consult the VFD manual to ensure that the V/Hz ratio is properly set for the motor.
Specific to your situation
Lack of Pressure Indication Between Pumps
This is a HUGE problem. You need to know the pressure the priming pump is delivering. Without this, you're flying blind. The priming pump might be under-performing and causing cavitation in the main pump.
Other Fingers in the Pot
This is always problematic. Insist on a controlled and documented troubleshooting process to avoid conflicting changes. Have a meeting with all involved.
Stall Fault after Current Limit Adjustment
Lowering the current limit is almost always the wrong thing to do without investigating the root cause of the high current. It suggests the underlying issue is increasing the motor load, not a drive problem.
Centrifugal Pump and Stall Faults: Centrifugal pumps are flow devices. Head (pressure) is generated from the velocity the impeller imparts to the fluid. It is very possible that you have something in the discharge line of the pump that is causing too much pressure. As you start the pump the fluid has nowhere to go and the motor sees it as a mechanical overload and gives you a stall fault.
In summary: Focus on mechanical issues FIRST. Then, ensure proper VFD settings (especially stall settings and acceleration/deceleration), and finally, address any electrical issues. Most importantly, get a pressure gauge installed between the pumps. You can't diagnose without knowing what is going on in between the pumps. Flag for review