User: rlane00, Location: Clackamas, OR
Asked on: Tuesday, January 7, 2025 at 6:26 pm EST
Answered on: Thursday, March 6, 2025 at 7:02 am EST
Question: A house we wired has some of the lights dim when the homeowner runs the vacuum cleaner (or a hole hawg), but not when a slighter greater resistive load from a heat blanket is applied. We are trying to figure out why that is happening so that we can remedy the situation and would appreciate any advice.Here is some additional information about the situation:- The house has a 320-a continuous meter-base feeding two main-breaker panels. One panel feeds a sub-panel dedicated to high-end audio equipment.- There is a whole house generator backing up both main panels with two transfer switches.- There is a variety of lighting in the house, including integrated LED ceiling cans, wall-mounted library sconce lights, vanity lights, LED pucks, etc.- The house has a lot of Lutron Caseta dimmers w/o neutral (PD-6WCL), but we removed those as part of troubleshooting and the issue persists - so they don't appear to be a factor.- All lights and dimmers work fine all of the time... as long as the vacuum cleaner (or similar device such as whole hawg) is not running. When the vacuum is plugged into a receptacle that also has lights on the same circuit, then some of the lights dim considerably, and stay dim the whole time the vacuum is running (not just due to inrush). The lights that dim are generally wall-mounted sconces with screw-in LED bulbs), while other lights on the same circuits (such as the LED can lights) operate normally.- We measured voltage at both main panel(s) at 122 volts.- We measured voltage at the switch location at 121 volts (without any load)- After turning on the lights (with regular switch, not dimmer) and plugging in the vacuum, voltage initially dipped to 104V (current of 17.8 amps), then recovered to 110 v (current of 8.8 amps) -- and only the wall sconce lights dimmed and stay dimmed while vacuum ran.- After turning on the lights (with regular switch, not dimmer) and plugging in the heat blanket, voltage dipped to 102.4V -- and all the lights operated normally while vacuum ran.- Since the problem appeared to be related to just fixtures with screw-in LED bulbs (but not every fixture with screw-in bulbs), we tried a few other bulb types (CFL, incandescent, a couple of different LEDs). They all had the same problem.- We then used a table lamp with screw-in bulb to try in different parts of the house to see if that fixture dimmed with the vacuum running or not. The results were:- The table lamp dimmed (when vac was running) when plugged into a variety circuits from both main panels, both A and B phases, including the circuits that experienced the dimming fixtures.- The table lamp did NOT dim (when vac was running) when plugged into other circuits from both main panels, both A and B phases.- The utility has apparently investigated their side of things and said everything is fine on their end - no loose neutrals or anything like that.We are planning to go back and do the following additional steps:- Bypass all the in-house wiring and temporarily provide power (via extension cord) to one of the fixtures that dims and see what happens when we run only the vac and that one fixture. If the fixture dims, then we should be able to rule out issues with any house wiring. If fixture doesn't dim, use that temp cord to feed power to devices earlier in the circuit to see if we can isolate the section causing the problem.- Also bring a keyless with us and replace one of the fixtures that dims with the keyless to see if they all dim, or if the keyless doesn't.Any other ideas or suggestions? Thanks!
This is a tricky problem, but the detailed troubleshooting you've already done is excellent. Here's a breakdown of possible causes and additional troubleshooting steps based on your observations
Summary of Key Observations and What They Suggest:
Load Sensitivity
The dimming is happening with the vacuum cleaner (a motor load) but not with a similar resistive load from a heat blanket, even if the voltage dip is comparable. This strongly suggests a problem related to the type of load. Motors draw a lot of current when they start and their current draw can fluctuate while running (especially if the vacuum is on carpet, then hardwood, etc).
Specific Fixtures
The fact that some LED fixtures dim while others (even on the same circuit) don't, and that incandescent/CFL bulbs dim similarly, points away from the LED fixtures/bulbs themselves being the primary issue. It suggests some fixtures are more sensitive to fluctuations than others.
Voltage Dip
The voltage dip is significant (121V to 104V), indicating a substantial voltage drop under load. This could be from inadequate wiring (size or connection), a poor neutral, or other issues on the line.
Table Lamp Test
The table lamp dimming in some circuits and not in others is VERY informative. It suggests specific circuits within the house are more susceptible to the voltage fluctuations caused by the vacuum.
Utility Check
The utility's claim of no problems should be verified, but you need to consider the rest of your diagnostic tools.
Possible Causes & Troubleshooting Steps
Neutral Issues (High Priority)
Load on Neutral
Even though the utility claims the neutral is good, inside the house is where the majority of the problem seems to stem from.
Voltage Drop
The voltage dip you are observing indicates a problem.
Multi-wire Branch Circuits (MWBCs)
If you have MWBCs, a shared neutral carrying too much current can cause voltage imbalances and dimming on one phase.
Test
With all circuits off, measure the resistance between the neutral bus in each panel and a known good ground (cold water pipe). A high resistance indicates a loose or corroded neutral connection.
Check for Current on Neutral
Measure the current on the neutral wire going to each panel with the vacuum cleaner running. A high current on the neutral could indicate a problem with unbalanced loads or a neutral connection.2.
Shared Circuit with Motor
Dedicated Circuit
Put the vacuum on a dedicated circuit. This would at least keep it from interfering with the lights. It also gives you the option to add an isolation transformer to the vacuum cleaner.
Plug-in Motor Filter
An online search will provide you with filters you can plug in between the vacuum cleaner and the wall.3.
Branch Circuit Impedance (High Resistance Wires)
Impedance
The fact that some table lamp locations dim and others don't strongly points to this. The circuits that dim are likely to have higher impedance in the wire from the panel to the receptacle. This could be from a long wire run, undersized wiring, or bad connections.
Wire Size
Double-check the wire gauge used for the circuits that are experiencing dimming. Are they undersized for the length of the run?
Connection Issues
Every connection on the circuit needs to be checked. Look for: Loose screw terminals at receptacles, switches, and in the panel. Poor wire nut connections (corroded, loose, too many wires). Back-stabbed receptacles (these are notorious for poor connections). Replace them with receptacles that use screw terminals.4.
Panel Connections (Also High Priority)
Bus Bar Connection
Verify that the breakers are making solid contact with the bus bars in the panels. Look for corrosion or signs of overheating. Tighten breaker connections if possible (while power is OFF!).
Main Feed Lugs
Check the tightness of the main feed lugs where the service entrance conductors connect to the main breaker. Loose connections can cause voltage drops.
Neutral/Ground Bus
Make sure the neutral and ground bus bars are properly bonded to the panel enclosure.5.
Generator/Transfer Switch Issues
Bypass the Generator System
If possible, temporarily bypass the transfer switches and power the house directly from the utility to see if the problem disappears. This would isolate the generator/transfer switch system.
Transfer Switch Contacts
Inspect the transfer switch contacts for signs of burning or corrosion. Clean them if necessary.6.
Specific Fixture Sensitivity
You've already started down this path with the keyless. Some fixtures, especially those with electronic drivers (LEDs), can be more sensitive to voltage fluctuations than others.
Detailed Troubleshooting Steps
Voltage Drop Testing (Most Important)
Under Load
With the vacuum running, measure the voltage at the panel, at the receptacle where the vacuum is plugged in, and at the dimming lights. This will pinpoint where the voltage drop is occurring. Measure phase to neutral, phase to ground, and neutral to ground. A significant voltage difference between these points indicates a wiring problem.
Voltage Sag Study
Use a recording voltmeter/power quality analyzer to monitor the voltage over time. This can capture voltage sags/dips that are happening too quickly to see with a standard voltmeter. This can also help you identify the exact characteristics of the voltage fluctuations caused by the vacuum.
Circuit Isolation
One Circuit at a Time
Turn off all breakers except for the one circuit with the dimming lights and the receptacle where the vacuum is plugged in. Does the dimming still occur? If so, the problem is likely isolated to that circuit. If not, turn on additional circuits one at a time until the dimming reappears to narrow down the issue.
Extension Cord Test
Powering Fixture Directly
Your plan to power a dimming fixture directly with an extension cord from a known good circuit is a good one. Make sure the extension cord is heavy-duty (12 gauge or better) to minimize voltage drop in the cord itself.
Bypass House Wiring
Your plan of bypassing the in-house wiring using the extension cord will test to see if the problem persists. If so, then the problem is from the utility and you are stuck telling the client that the utility has to fix it.
Recommendations for Specific Action
Focus on Neutral Connections and Wiring Impedance
This is the most likely culprit. Methodically check every connection from the panel to the affected fixtures and receptacles.2.
Voltage Drop Testing is Crucial
Do detailed voltage drop testing under load to pinpoint the location of the voltage drop.3.
Simplify and Isolate
Keep simplifying the circuit (one circuit at a time) until the problem is isolated.4.
Document Everything
Keep detailed notes of all your measurements and changes. This will help you track your progress and identify patterns.5.
Consult a Power Quality Expert: If you're still stumped after trying these steps, consider consulting a power quality expert. They have specialized equipment and knowledge to diagnose complex electrical problems.Good luck! This sounds like a frustrating problem, but your methodical approach should eventually lead to a solution. Flag for review