User: HaveBlue, Location: CA
Asked on: Tuesday, January 21, 2025 at 11:18 am EST
Answered on: Thursday, March 6, 2025 at 7:34 am EST
Question: I was hoping someone had some ideas on this. About a year ago I installed a residential 40A Autel EV charger about 3' away on my 100A Murray panel from the 80s with a 50A #6/#10 thhn hardwired circuit. Checked all the lines, neutrals and the grounds including non related circuits for something loose but the charger occasionally faults out with a ground fault error. I'm not sure the house has two proper ground rods. Someone may have just gone to plumbing. Things are bonded in the main panel.Resetting or plugging in the charger again and it works for a while. I've tested two different cars and it will fault eventually even if it isn't charging but just plugged in. Ie charging completed and later it faults.Other thoughts were that something is wrong with the GFI in the charger. However lights occasionally flicker in the house and using a small welder causes the neighbors lights to flicker as well. The neighbor also causes my lights to flicker also welder use coincidently. The city came out but found nothing. Recently after a wind storm (well fire storm actually as 10k houses burned in my neighborhood) I inspected another neighbor's 200a panel up the block who lost his service drop to a tree and showed him the order to turn things back on later. He mentioned that he was thinking of replacing his two Tesla chargers because "they were old and erroring randomly."This, of course, got me thinking even more about the city service having issues even before the storm.So my questions, could a split phase imbalance on the line (city) side cause 240 gfis to trip? 120 gfi can function without a ground but I'm guessing that a 240 uses the egc ground lead as a neutral reference possibly. EV chargers don't have a neutral GC. Could better gec rod etc help? Could the city have a bad neutral? Anyway to diagnose a random situation like this?I have a B license so at some level I'd include my electrician but I'd like to get some ideas. Thx
This is a complex situation, but you've identified some very plausible causes. Here's a breakdown of your points, potential diagnoses, and troubleshooting steps
1. The Ground Faults:
GFI Sensitivity
EV chargers use very sensitive GFIs for safety (typically around 5mA trip). This makes them more prone to nuisance tripping than a standard bathroom GFI.
Charger Issue
The fact that it faults even when not actively charging points heavily towards a problem with the Autel charger's GFI circuit. This could be a faulty component, moisture ingress, or sensitivity drift.
Wiring Issue
Although you checked, a small nick in the insulation of one of the conductors, or a stray strand of wire bridging to ground could be the culprit. Even if it initially measures fine, thermal expansion during operation could cause a fault.
Harmonics/Noise
Modern electronics (including your neighbor's welder, EV chargers, and other devices) generate harmonics and electrical noise. These can sometimes induce current in the ground wire, leading to GFI trips. This is more common in buildings with significant electronic loads.
Shared Neutral (Not Likely but Possible)
While not explicitly a shared neutral in the traditional sense, if the grounding and neutral are not rock solid, imbalances can lead to voltage differences that the GFI interprets as a fault.
2. The Flicker and Neighbor's Welder
Voltage Sag
The flickering lights and the neighbor's welder affecting your supply strongly suggest a voltage drop issue on your city's transformer. This is especially likely if your neighbor is also having EV charger issues.
Shared Transformer
You and your neighbors likely share a distribution transformer. Heavy loads on that transformer will cause voltage sag, particularly when the transformer is nearing its capacity or is aging.
Loose Neutral Connection (City Side)
A loose or corroded neutral connection at the transformer, the service drop, or even further upstream is a prime suspect. This can cause voltage imbalances and erratic behavior. A bad neutral can also cause very high voltage conditions on one leg and low voltage on the other leading to equipment damage.
Service Conductor Degradation
Old service cables can corrode, increasing resistance and causing voltage drops under load.
3. Your Hypotheses & Questions
Split Phase Imbalance
Yes, a significant imbalance on the incoming split-phase (240V) line can cause 240V GFIs to trip. The GFI relies on equal current flowing through the hot legs. If there's a major imbalance, it can appear as a ground fault.
240V GFIs and Ground
240V GFIs definitely use the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) for reference. It is the only grounding element for that circuit. They don't use it like a neutral, but any voltage difference between the hot legs and ground can be interpreted as a fault.
Better Grounding (GEC Rods)
Definitely worth investigating. A robust grounding system is crucial. If you suspect the grounding is inadequate, adding (or replacing) ground rods, and ensuring proper bonding to the water pipe (if metallic and compliant with local codes) is important. The quality of the soil around the ground rods also plays a significant role. Make sure to check for corrosion at the rod clamps.
City Neutral
This is a prime suspect. A failing city neutral can wreak havoc on the voltage balance and cause GFI trips.
4. Diagnosis and Troubleshooting Steps
Verify Grounding
Inspect Ground Rods
Locate your ground rods. Are there two? Are they properly installed and connected with the correct clamps? Are the connections corroded? What's the condition of the wire connecting them to the panel?
Ground Resistance Test
Have an electrician perform a ground resistance test. This will tell you the effectiveness of your grounding system. Ideally, it should be 25 ohms or less (as per the NEC). However, even with a good resistance reading, you can still have voltage issues if the connection to the transformer is poor.
Bonding
Confirm that your water pipe (if metallic) and any other required metallic services are properly bonded to the grounding system.2.
Voltage Monitoring
Long-Term Voltage Recording
Use a voltage recorder that can log voltage over time. This will help you capture the voltage sags and imbalances that occur when the welder or other heavy loads are in use. Record voltage at the main panel. Record voltage on both legs.
Voltage Drop Measurement
Use a multimeter to measure the voltage at the Autel charger while a high current load (like a water heater or another appliance) is running. Excessive voltage drop indicates a wiring issue.3.
Load Analysis
Current Clamp Meter
Use a clamp meter to measure the current on each leg of your main panel. This will help you identify any large imbalances. Note these during peak usage and also during times when the charger faults.4.
Autel Charger Testing
Contact Autel
The fact that it faults even without charging suggests a faulty charger. Contact Autel support and see if they have any known issues or troubleshooting steps. They might suggest a replacement.
Move the Charger
If possible, move the charger to another properly wired and grounded 240V circuit (like a range or dryer outlet). This can help determine if the issue is the charger itself or something with the original circuit. Note: Ensure this other circuit is adequately sized for the charger's load, even for just testing.5.
City Utility Involvement
Document Everything
Keep detailed records of the voltage readings, fault occurrences, and any other relevant information.
Report to Utility
Contact your power company and report the flickering lights, voltage fluctuations, and the fact that your neighbor is also experiencing issues. Emphasize that multiple residences are affected and that it's impacting safety-critical equipment (EV chargers). Present your documented evidence.
Request Neutral Inspection
Specifically request that they inspect the neutral connection at the transformer and the service drop to your house. Explain your concerns about a failing neutral.
Neighbor Coordination
Talk to your neighbors and encourage them to report the problems as well. The more reports the utility receives, the more likely they are to investigate.
Escalate If Necessary
If the utility is unresponsive, escalate the issue to their supervisor or regulatory agency.
Important Considerations
Safety First
Electricity is dangerous. If you're not comfortable with any of these tests, hire a qualified electrician.
Code Compliance
Ensure all work complies with the National Electrical Code (NEC) and local codes.
Documentation
Keep records of all tests, repairs, and communications with the utility company.
Specific to Your Situation: The firestorm and damaged infrastructure add another layer of complexity. There's a higher likelihood that the utility's infrastructure was affected.* The neighbor's comment about their Tesla chargers "erroring randomly" is a significant red flag. It strongly suggests a problem on the utility side.Good luck! This is a challenging problem, but by systematically investigating and documenting your findings, you should be able to isolate the cause and get it resolved. Flag for review