Mike Dolt Enterprises Logo Mike Dolt Enterprises

Topic: AFCI Breakers Gone Wild (new to forum)

User: NotmyArcFault, Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Asked on: Monday, February 3, 2025 at 6:01 pm EST
Answered on: Thursday, March 6, 2025 at 8:11 am EST

Question: Hi folks,I'm looking for some help on diagnosing Murry AT2 breakers 'randomly' tripping for arc faults.I have a non electrical engineering background, and have worked on electrical system design for many years. So, I'm not starting from zero on the skillset, but perhaps pretty darn closeBackground: I live in a 1940s house that had the electrical upgraded some years ago with a 200A panel, loaded with mostly Murray AT3 AFCI breakers.The house is on a community property, being fed from the main power drop say 400yds away.I don't have a separate electrical bill and the wiring to the house is not 'owned' by the power company.The circuits in the house are very discreet in design and isolation at the house panel.Almost everything has its own circuit. I'm excluding the 220 circuits, they are not AFCI and do not ever trip.There are separate circuits/breakers for:DishwasherDisposal1/2 the kitchen (2x outlets)2nd 1/2 the kitchen (2x outlets)FridgeMicrowaveBedroom #1Bedroom #2Main Room lights (living and kitchen combined, its one large room)Some are 15A some 20A (not sure that important for this conversation)As mentioned, randomly a breaker will trip. When reset the Arc Fault LED goes on. Never the GND fault LED.The faults usually happen when something on the circuit starts. IE the coffee burr grinder trips the pair of kitchen outlets.Dishwasher has tripped its circuit starting around 2 months ago. Before that it was fine. I move the dishwasher to the disposal circuit, has only tripped once.Fridge trips. These usually fluctuate and will trip a lot for a few days, then get better for weeks or longer without a trip.Tripped once while on vacation, had to toss almost the entire contents.Other info (maybe useful):When a large fan is running and something like the stove/microwave kicks in, the fan speed slows (pitch changes noticeably).So, I'm looking for some guidance on what to check to try to fix this issue. Most everything I've found online centers troubleshooting around 'the bad item' in a circuit. The bad item could be the wiring...The living room lights will sometimes trip after being on for hours.In my scenario, it doesn't appear to be an item, or a the wiring of 'a circuit'.Seems to me there is some sort of general noise that the breakers are picking up and one of them trips. They take turns to make my life interesting...Looking for help and wisdom from this group to help this noob out of a jam.

Okay, this is a tricky problem, but you've provided some excellent information. The fact that the problem seems to jump around circuits, and the observation about the fan slowing down, is key. Let's break down the possible causes and troubleshooting steps

1. Voltage Sag and Line Noise (Most Likely Culprit)
The Problem

Your description of the fan slowing down when the stove/microwave kicks on is a classic sign of voltage sag. This happens when the incoming voltage to your house drops significantly when a large appliance draws a lot of power. This voltage sag can create electrical noise and harmonics that AFCI breakers are
very sensitive to. AFCI breakers are designed to detect subtle changes in current flow that mimic an arc fault, and these changes can be triggered by voltage fluctuations.

Why AFCI Breakers Are Tripping

AFCI breakers look for specific waveform irregularities. Voltage sags and surges distort the normal sine wave of the AC current, and that distortion can be misinterpreted as an arc fault.

Troubleshooting and Solutions



Measure Voltage at the Panel

Use a multimeter to measure the voltage at your main panel

while appliances are running
(especially the stove, microwave, and dishwasher). Observe if the voltage drops significantly (below, say, 110V) when these appliances are on. This is a crucial first step. Be extremely careful and take all necessary safety precautions when working with electrical panels. If you're not comfortable, hire a qualified electrician. Contact the Property Manager/Owner of the Line

Because the line feeding your house is not owned by the power company, your next step should be to contact the property owner and explain that you are experiencing voltage fluctuations. They will have to contact the power company. Document the trips, appliances and date/times. Let them know that you are worried about damage to your appliances. They can work with the power company to inspect the lines feeding the community property.


Consider a Whole-House Surge Protector (with Voltage Regulation)

A good whole-house surge protector won't just protect against surges, but can also include voltage regulation. These can help smooth out voltage fluctuations. However, these are a band-aid fix, and the underlying voltage sag problem still needs to be addressed. If you go with a surge protector, ensure it has voltage regulation capabilities.

Voltage Monitoring

Consider installing a voltage monitoring device that logs voltage fluctuations over time. This can provide concrete evidence to show the power company. There are smart circuit monitors that integrate with home automation systems that can record such events.

2. Neutral Issues
The Problem

A loose or corroded neutral connection can cause voltage imbalances and stray currents that can trigger AFCI breakers. This can be within your panel, at an outlet box, or (more troublingly) somewhere along the shared wiring that feeds your house.

Troubleshooting and Solutions



Check Panel Neutral Connections



WITH THE POWER OFF (MAIN BREAKER OFF)
, carefully inspect the neutral bus bar in your main panel. Look for loose screws, corrosion, or signs of overheating. Tighten all neutral connections. This is a common source of problems. Check Receptacle Connections



WITH THE POWER OFF (BREAKER OFF)
, check all the receptacle connections on circuits that are tripping. Make sure the wires are securely connected.
Megger Test (Professional Only)

A megger (insulation resistance tester) can be used by a qualified electrician to test the insulation of the wiring in the affected circuits. This can help identify damaged or degraded wiring that could be causing leakage currents.

Hire an Electrician to Check the Entire System

Given the age of the house and the shared power connection, it's possible that a neutral issue exists somewhere upstream in the shared wiring. An electrician can perform voltage drop tests and other diagnostic procedures to track down the source of the problem.

3. Actual Arc Faults
The Problem

While less likely given the randomness of the tripping, it's still possible that you have intermittent arc faults caused by damaged wiring or faulty devices.

Troubleshooting and Solutions



Inspect Outlets and Wiring



WITH THE POWER OFF (BREAKER OFF)
, visually inspect all outlets, switches, and wiring on the affected circuits. Look for signs of damage, such as cracked insulation, loose connections, or charred wiring. Test Appliances Individually

Unplug all appliances on a circuit and then plug them in one by one, monitoring for tripping. This can help isolate a faulty appliance. Consider using an appliance tester (if you have one).


Consider Replacing Problematic Outlets

Old or worn outlets can develop internal arcing. Replacing them can sometimes resolve the issue.

4. AFCI Breaker Sensitivity
The Problem

AFCI breakers are known to be overly sensitive at times, especially older models.


Troubleshooting and Solutions



Contact Murray/Siemens Tech Support

Contact Murray/Siemens technical support and describe the problem. They may have specific troubleshooting steps or firmware updates for their AFCI breakers.


Consider Replacing the AFCI Breakers (As a Last Resort)

If all other troubleshooting steps fail, you might consider replacing the problematic AFCI breakers with newer models. Make sure they are compatible with your panel and meet current code requirements. However, do not do this until you've ruled out other issues, as this is often just masking the underlying problem. Do not replace with non-AFCI breakers.

Important Safety Notes



TURN OFF THE POWER

Always turn off the power at the breaker before working on any electrical wiring.


WORK SAFELY

If you are not comfortable working with electricity, hire a qualified electrician.*

FOLLOW CODE

Ensure that any electrical work you do complies with local electrical codes.

In summary, the most likely cause of your random AFCI trips is voltage sag and line noise due to the shared power line. The first step is to measure the voltage at your panel while appliances are running and contact the property owner so they can have the main line inspected. If you are unable to convince them of an issue, you will need to hire an electrician to check the wiring and connections within your house, and test with a megger meter.
Flag for review

Previous Question Next Question