User: busman, Location: Northern Virginia
Asked on: Sunday, March 16, 2025 at 3:15 pm EDT
Answered on: Sunday, March 16, 2025 at 3:15 pm EDT
Question: All,I know how much experience many of you have with older equipment. I got a call from a local church saying they had a $26K proposal to replace all their panelboards because 2 space heaters on one circuit tripped the CB. Anyway, photo follow:Service is about 200A (no main disconnect, just going by the PoCo drop size) single phase 120/240VHas a CT cabinet (no idea why)Feeds a 6 space QMQB panelboard which appears to be in OK shape with only three spaces in useThis feeds one small modern CH subpanel (not an issue)It also feeds two NBLP subpanels (one of them in right side of photo)I would appreciate all feedback. My recommendation is basically "do nothing". If they are worried about the FPE subpanels (bolt on, not Stab-Lok) I might recommend replacing all the branch circuit breakers as there appear to be replacement new ETL listed CB available a reasonable cost. Thoughts?As always, I greatly value your collective insight and even better to help a church that does a lot of community service.Thanks,MarkPS: I have more photos. Please request and I'll be glad to post. The "seal" on the top of the meter can is a bit "special".
Okay, Mark, let's break this down and see if we can help this church avoid a potentially unnecessary $26k expenditure. Your initial assessment sounds reasonable.Here's a structured thought process
1. Initial Impressions and Validation:
$26k for Panelboard Replacement Based on Overload is Excessive
Absolutely. Two space heaters on a single circuit tripping a breaker is a common occurrence and not an indication of a systemic panelboard failure requiring complete replacement. It indicates a circuit is overloaded and needs to be addressed on that circuit.
Service Size
A 200A service should be adequate for a church, but that depends on the load. A proper load calculation might be worthwhile as a precautionary measure, but likely won't reveal an immediate need for service upgrade.
2. Addressing the Immediate Problem (Tripped Breaker)
The REAL issue
The immediate problem is that they were running two space heaters on one circuit and overloaded it. This is a USER issue. Not an equipment issue.
Solution
Instruct the church to NOT use two space heaters on the same circuit. That circuit is likely 15A or 20A. Determine the wattage of the heaters. 1500W / 120V = 12.5A. 1000W/120V = 8.3A. If the heaters are 1500W each, that would likely overload a 15A circuit.
Real Solution
Add dedicated circuits for space heaters if they need that many. This is MUCH cheaper than replacing panels.
3. Evaluating the Existing Equipment (Starting with the QMQB panel)
QMQB (Square D)
This is a robust, bolt-on panelboard. If it's in good condition (no rust, corrosion, signs of overheating, etc.), it's likely perfectly fine to remain in service. It's a quality piece of equipment.
CT Cabinet (Current Transformer Cabinet)
The CT cabinet likely exists to meter the service. The utility may own this portion, you would need to verify that it's part of the customer's service. Churches sometimes have special metering arrangements, or had in the past. Is there a separate utility meter?
Feed to Subpanels
The QMQB panel feeds the subpanels. Check the main breaker in the QMQB panel that feeds each subpanel. Ensure it's appropriately sized for the subpanel and the wire gauge feeding it.
Only 3 Spaces in Use
Suggest you confirm the total number of available spaces. There are likely more available.
4. Evaluating the NBLP Subpanels
Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) NBLP
This is where caution is warranted.
Bolt-on, Not Stab-Lok (Important)
The fact that they are bolt-on, not Stab-Lok, significantly reduces the risk. Stab-Lok panels are the ones with the documented history of failure.
Age and Condition
Assess the age and condition of these panels. Look for: Rust, corrosion, moisture damage Signs of overheating (discolored conductors, melted insulation, burnt smells) Loose connections Physical damage to the panel enclosure
Breaker Functionality
This is the key concern. You want to ensure the breakers are functioning correctly.
Options for the NBLP Panels
Option 1 (Your Recommendation - Conservative and Reasonable)
Leave them in place, but replace ALL the branch circuit breakers with new, ETL-listed replacements if available and suitable for the panel. This provides a measure of safety and peace of mind. Find a reputable supplier of replacement breakers. It's important that they are the correct type for that panel. Confirm they are ETL Listed!
Option 2 (More Aggressive, Still Safer than Full Replacement)
Remove the NBLP panels, and install a modern loadcenter with a main breaker, fed by the QMQB.
Option 3 (If in Very Poor Condition)
If the NBLP panels show significant signs of deterioration, replacement is advisable.
5. The Small, Modern CH Subpanel
Assuming this is a Cutler-Hammer/Eaton CH panel, it's likely fine. Inspect it to ensure it's properly installed and sized for the load it serves.6. Overall Recommendations
Address the Space Heater Issue First! Explain to the church the dangers of overloading circuits. This is a user education opportunity.2. Inspect all panels thoroughly. Document your findings with photos.3. Load Calculation
Perform a basic load calculation to ensure the 200A service is adequate.4.
NBLP Panel Options
Best Option (If Available and Affordable)
Replace breakers in the NBLP panels with new, ETL-listed replacements.
Acceptable Option
Monitor the NBLP panels closely, checking for any signs of overheating or malfunction. Consider breaker replacement in the future.
Worst Case
Replace the NBLP panels with new load centers only if they are in poor condition.5.
"Seal" on Meter Can
Investigate that "seal." It likely means that the utility has the metering equipment and requires it be protected. Call the utility to ask.
Important Considerations
Documentation
Keep detailed records of your inspection, findings, and recommendations. This protects you and provides a history for the church.
Transparency
Explain your recommendations clearly and transparently to the church. Show them the evidence that supports your conclusions.
Code Compliance
Ensure any work you perform is compliant with current electrical codes.
Liability
Be aware of your liability and ensure you have appropriate insurance coverage.
Request for More Photos
Photos of the interior of the NBLP panels – showing the busbars, breakers, and wiring connections. Close-up photos of any areas of concern – rust, corrosion, overheating, etc. Photo of the 'seal' on top of the meter can. Photo of inside the QMQB A photo of the nameplate on the NBLP panel(s).
By following this approach, you can provide the church with sound advice, avoid unnecessary expenses, and ensure their electrical system is safe and reliable. Good luck! Let me know if you have further questions or want to discuss anything in more detail. Flag for review