User: Shuntme, Location: San Diego California
Asked on: Saturday, May 3, 2025 at 8:40 pm EDT
Answered on: Saturday, May 3, 2025 at 8:41 pm EDT
Question: Replacing a hydraulic 24" vertical Sluice Gate controls with an electric actuator. Hydraulic specs was 6in/min travel. New actuator(re-purposed) cycle time is much slower in the 10min range. Full open and full close limits are set correctly and Open and Close indications are also set correctly. Problem is the PLC is so outdated connection to it to change the cycle time is virtually out of the question. PLC is looking for the Open or Close indication with a 4min cycle time and the electrical actuator cycle time being 10min, the PLC shuts it down after 4min timeout either way and to continue the cycle I have to reset the command switch.Is there an alternative solution if I can not access the PLC to increase the cycle time to 10minutes. Upgrading the PLC is not an option at this time as it is an RTU that controls other SCADA communications. Your ideas most welcome.Thank you
Okay, this is a classic control system integration problem. You've got a mismatch in speed expectation between the PLC and the new actuator, and limited access to the PLC to fix it. Here are several alternative solutions, ranging from simpler to more complex, and from less to more reliable
1. The "Dummy" Timer Relay Solution (Simplest, Least Reliable):
Concept
Fool the PLC into thinking the Open/Close command is still valid for the duration of the actuator's travel.
How it Works
Timer Relay
Install a Timer Relay in parallel with the PLC's Open/Close output to the actuator. This relay needs to be adjustable for a time slightly longer than your actuator's full stroke time (e.g., 11 minutes).
Trigger
When the PLC sends the Open/Close command, wire it to trigger the Timer Relay at the same time it triggers the actuator.
Output
The Timer Relay's output (a normally open contact) is wired in series with the Open/Close signal going back to the PLC's indication input.
Behavior
PLC sends Open/Close command. Actuator starts moving and the Timer Relay starts timing. The Timer Relay's contact closes, maintaining the Open/Close signal to the PLC. After 11 minutes (or whatever you set), the Timer Relay's contact opens, dropping the Open/Close signal back to the PLC. By this time, your actuator should have reached its limit switch and sent back the final Open/Close confirmation.
Pros
Simplest to implement with minimal rewiring. Inexpensive.
Cons
Unreliable Feedback
The PLC is blind to the actual position of the gate during those 11 minutes. It assumes the gate is moving as commanded. This is a major safety and operational concern. If the actuator stalls, fails, or encounters an obstruction, the PLC will have no indication until the Timer Relay times out.
Potential for Overrun
If the actuator fails to stop at the limit switch, it could continue to run, potentially damaging the actuator or gate.
2. The "Pulse Extension" Solution (Slightly More Complex, Still Lacks Real Feedback)
Concept
The PLC thinks it's sending the signal for the correct duration, even though it's not. We extend the PLC's output pulse.
How it Works
One-Shot Timer
Use a One-Shot Timer (also called a monostable multivibrator). This device accepts a short input pulse (the PLC's Open/Close command) and outputs a longer pulse.
Adjustable Pulse Width
The One-Shot Timer must have an adjustable pulse width setting that you can set to the required 10 minutes.
Wiring
The PLC's Open/Close output triggers the One-Shot Timer. The One-Shot Timer's output drives the actuator.
Behavior
PLC sends a short Open/Close command (e.g., a momentary contact closure). The One-Shot Timer triggers and outputs a 10-minute pulse to the actuator. Actuator moves. After 10 minutes, the One-Shot Timer's output drops, regardless of the actuator's actual position.
Pros
Relatively simple wiring. Guaranteed full stroke (assuming no actuator problems).
Cons
Still No Real Feedback
Like the first option, the PLC doesn't know what's really happening with the gate. If the actuator fails, stalls, or the gate jams, the PLC will be unaware.
Potential for Overrun
Same risk of the actuator running past the limit switch if it malfunctions.
3. The "Latching Relay with Limit Switch Feedback" Solution (Better Safety, Requires Rewiring)
Concept
Use a latching relay to maintain the Open/Close command, released only by the actuator's limit switches. This gives the PLC better feedback.
How it Works
Latching Relay
You'll need a latching relay (also called a bistable relay or a set-reset relay). It has two coils: a "Set" coil and a "Reset" coil. When the "Set" coil is energized, the relay's contacts change state and stay that way even after the "Set" coil is de-energized. Energizing the "Reset" coil returns the contacts to their original state.
Wiring
PLC Open/Close Output -> "Set" coil of the Latching Relay. Latching Relay's Contacts -> Power to the Actuator. Actuator's Open Limit Switch -> "Reset" coil of the Latching Relay. Actuator's Close Limit Switch -> "Reset" coil of the Latching Relay. (You might need a separate relay for this, depending on your latching relay and limit switch configuration.)
PLC Feedback
Wire the Latching Relay contact position and the Limit Switch positions back to the PLC for position feedback.
Behavior
PLC sends Open/Close command (energizes the "Set" coil). Latching Relay changes state and stays that way, providing power to the actuator. Actuator moves. When the actuator reaches its Open or Close limit switch, the limit switch energizes the "Reset" coil, de-energizing the Latching Relay and stopping the actuator. The PLC reads the Latching Relay and Limit Switch feedback signals to know the gate's position.
Pros
Improved Safety
The PLC gets actual feedback about the gate's position. If the actuator stalls, the Latching Relay will remain energized, and the PLC won't get the limit switch confirmation. This indicates a problem.
Limit Switch Protection
Prevents the actuator from running past the limit switches (assuming the switches are working correctly).
Cons
More complex wiring than the previous options. Requires understanding of latching relays and limit switch logic.
4. The "External Timer with Limit Switch Override" (Similar to #3, but with timed shutdown)
Concept
Combines the Timer Relay with the Limit Switch Feedback.
How it Works
Timer Relay
As in Solution #1, use a Timer Relay adjustable for slightly longer than the actuator's full stroke time.
Latching Relay
Use the same setup as Solution #3, using the Timer Relay contacts to energize the Set coil.
Limit Switch override
The Limit Switches are configured to de-energize the Timer Relay.
Wiring
PLC Open/Close Output triggers the Timer Relay. Timer Relay's Contacts to the "Set" coil of the Latching Relay. Latching Relay's Contacts -> Power to the Actuator. Actuator's Open Limit Switch opens the circuit feeding the Timer Relay. Actuator's Close Limit Switch opens the circuit feeding the Timer Relay. (You might need a separate relay for this, depending on your latching relay and limit switch configuration.)
PLC Feedback
Wire the Latching Relay contact position and the Limit Switch positions back to the PLC for position feedback.
Behavior
PLC sends Open/Close command (energizes the Timer Relay). Timer Relay starts timing, providing power to the Set coil. Latching Relay changes state and stays that way, providing power to the actuator. Actuator moves. When the actuator reaches its Open or Close limit switch, the limit switch de-energizes the Timer Relay, de-energizing the Set Coil, which resets the Latching Relay, stopping the actuator. If the Limit switch does not trip, the timer will de-energize after 10-11 minutes. The PLC reads the Latching Relay and Limit Switch feedback signals to know the gate's position.
Pros
Improved Safety
The PLC gets actual feedback about the gate's position. If the actuator stalls, the Latching Relay will remain energized, and the PLC won't get the limit switch confirmation. This indicates a problem.
Limit Switch Protection
Prevents the actuator from running past the limit switches (assuming the switches are working correctly).
Timer Back-Up
If a limit switch fails, the timer will still stop the actuator (after the timeout), preventing potential runaway.
Cons
More complex wiring than the previous options. Requires understanding of latching relays and limit switch logic.
5. External PID Controller (Most Complex, Best Control, but more expensive)
Concept
Bypass the PLC's gate control entirely and use a standalone PID controller to manage the actuator.
How it Works
PID Controller
Purchase a dedicated PID controller. These are readily available and relatively inexpensive.
Position Feedback
Install a position transducer (e.g., a 4-20mA or potentiometer-based position sensor) on the gate or actuator. This provides continuous feedback to the PID controller about the gate's position.
Wiring
PLC Sends a Setpoint: The PLC still sends the desired gate position (e.g., 0% open, 50% open, 100% open) to the PID controller as a setpoint (e.g., 4-20mA signal, voltage signal, or Modbus communication). PID Controller Drives Actuator: The PID controller receives the setpoint from the PLC and the position feedback from the gate transducer. It then modulates the actuator to drive the gate to the desired position.
Behavior
PLC sends a new setpoint (desired gate position) to the PID controller. PID controller compares the setpoint to the actual gate position (from the transducer). PID controller sends control signals to the actuator, causing it to move the gate. The PID controller continuously adjusts the actuator until the actual gate position matches the setpoint. PLC gets position confirmation directly from the PID controller (as a feedback signal, or via Modbus communication).
Pros
Precise Control
PID controllers offer much more precise control than simple on/off control. You can achieve accurate gate positioning.
Adaptive Response
PID controllers can automatically adjust to changes in load, friction, and other factors that might affect the gate's movement.
Robustness
The system is less susceptible to PLC timing issues.
Advanced Diagnostics
Many PID controllers have built-in diagnostics that can alert you to actuator problems.
Cons
Most complex and expensive option. Requires understanding of PID control principles and tuning. Requires installation of a position transducer.
Important Considerations and Recommendations
Safety
The most important consideration is safety. You must ensure that any solution you implement prevents the possibility of a runaway gate or other hazardous situation. This means good feedback to the PLC.
Limit Switches
Verify that the limit switches on the actuator are functioning correctly and are properly wired. They are your last line of defense against over-travel.
Actuator Torque
Ensure that the actuator has sufficient torque to move the gate under all operating conditions. A stalled actuator is a serious problem.
Monitoring
Even with limit switch feedback, monitor the actuator's performance closely after the modification. Look for signs of excessive stress, overheating, or unusual behavior.
PLC Alarms
If possible, add alarms to the PLC to detect actuator stall conditions (e.g., if the limit switch is not reached within a reasonable time).
Consider the Process
Think about what's happening in the process controlled by this gate. Does precise positioning matter? Are there critical levels or flow rates that must be maintained? This will help you choose the appropriate level of control.
Budget
The least expensive options are the Timer Relay and One-Shot Timer. The PID controller is the most expensive.
Expert Consultation
Given the critical nature of this application, it's highly recommended that you consult with a qualified control systems engineer to help you choose the best solution and ensure that it's implemented safely and correctly. This is especially true if you are unfamiliar with latching relays, PID controllers, or control system wiring practices.
Recommendation
Given your situation, I would strongly recommend
Solution #3, the Latching Relay with Limit Switch Feedback, or Solution #4, the External Timer with Limit Switch Override as the minimum acceptable solution*. This provides a much higher level of safety than the timer-based approaches by providing real-time feedback about the gate's position.If precise control is required, Solution #5, the External PID Controller is the best option, but it's also the most complex and expensive. Flag for review