Mike Dolt Enterprises
Mike Dolt Enterprises
User: JLVNYC, Location: nyc
Asked on: Wednesday, June 18, 2025 at 12:18 pm EDT
Answered on: Wednesday, June 18, 2025 at 12:27 pm EDT
Question: Recently, I was called in to give an estimate on installing some high hats and to redo some electrical circuits in their kitchen, in a 4th floor co-op apartment, in queens nyc. The owners want to gut the kitchen for a remodel, get rid of their popcorn ceiling, and install proper lighting as there was none. Upon getting there, the owner showed me where the panel was, and oh boy, I went from excited to do the job, to just puzzled and dismayed.The panel is located in the kitchen behind the side panel of one of the lower cabinets. to paint a better picture, when facing the kitchen, it is in the shape of a 7. The panel is at the inside corner angle of the 7. you have to open that lower cabinet door and if you look inside you will see the side wall was cut out a bit, and there you will see the panel. The owner wants me to move it so that they can have a properly accessible panel, and so that when they redo the kitchen they can utilize that empty space. Right now the contractors plan was to put a corner sink so they can maximize on counter space.I did not see any other panels in the apartment and as far as I saw, there were no electrical closets in the hallway. I am waiting on a reply from the building maintenance to see if I can get access to the electrical room in the basement, or if they can even shed more light on where the riser to feed the apartment comes from. I called an electrician I used to work with before he retired, and he said thats the type of job he would have to say sorry and walk away from, not worth the headache.I attached a photo of the panel that the owner sent me after I left.there are 4 conduits going into the panel from the bottom, out of the floor. none on top. The conduits are about a little over a foot tall from the floor. we believe the whip on the right goes to the electrical stove, and there is one armored cable on the left that most likely goes to the dishwasher as it seems to be the most recent addition.I would like some opinions on what I can do to move this panel, and make it legal.photo 1photo 2photo 3
Okay, I understand the situation. This is definitely a tricky one, common in older NYC buildings. Here's a breakdown of the challenges, possible solutions, and things to consider, given the information you've provided and assuming you're working under NEC and NYC electrical codes
Challenges:
Panel Location
It's currently in a completely inaccessible and non-compliant location. The NEC mandates clear working space in front of electrical panels. A sink in front of the panel is a huge violation.
Riser Location Unknown
You need to know where the power feeding the panel originates to understand how much flexibility you have to move it. The panel likely feeds from below, possibly from an electrical room or another apartment below.
Conduit Runs
Four conduits coming up from the floor limit your options. You'll need to determine where those conduits run and how easily they can be rerouted or extended.
Co-op Board Approval
Moving a panel in a co-op requires significant planning and almost always requires board approval. This is crucial to obtain before promising anything to the apartment owner.
Building Structure
The building structure (concrete floors, etc.) significantly restricts your ability to run new conduits or reroute existing ones.
Permitting
This job absolutely requires a permit. Attempting to do this without a permit is a massive risk.
Cost & Disruption
Moving the panel will be expensive and disruptive, especially if it involves concrete work and potentially affecting other apartments.
Popcorn Ceiling
Removing the popcorn ceiling could potentially release asbestos, requiring abatement. Check local regulations and building history.
Possible Solutions (Ranked Generally from Best to Worst - but Highly Dependent on Specific Building Constraints)
Ideal Solution: Relocate to a Nearby Wall
Concept
Find an accessible and compliant location on an adjacent wall (or even a wall in the same room). Ideally, it would be a wall without significant plumbing or other obstructions.
Requirements
Reroute Conduits
You'll need to extend the four conduits from the floor to the new panel location. This likely means cutting into the concrete floor (with proper building approval and dust control).
Working Space
Ensure the new location has the required working clearances (usually 30" wide, 36" deep, and 6'6" high, but check your local code).
Aesthetics
Consider the panel's appearance in the new location. It should be relatively unobtrusive.
Co-op Board Approval
This is crucial, as it involves structural modifications and potential disruption to the building.2.
Alternative: Recess the Panel in the Wall (Same General Area)
Concept
Instead of moving the panel significantly, cut into the wall and recess the existing panel into the wall so it's flush. This can be difficult due to the height of the existing conduits.
Requirements
Sufficient Wall Depth
The wall must be thick enough to accommodate the depth of the panel and any required clearances behind it.
Rerouting Conduits
You'll likely still need to extend or modify the conduits to make them fit within the recessed space.
Clearance
Make sure the recessed panel still meets working clearance requirements.
Structural Considerations
Ensure you aren't compromising the structural integrity of the wall.
Co-op Board Approval
Less invasive than moving the panel entirely, but still requires approval.3.
The "Least Desirable" Solution: Build an Accessible Cabinet
Concept
Construct a custom cabinet around the existing panel location, designed to provide proper working space and access. This is often a last resort because it's not ideal and can be expensive to do correctly.
Requirements
Cabinet Design
The cabinet must be designed to meet all working space requirements. This means enough clear space in front of the panel when the cabinet doors are open.
Ventilation
Ensure the cabinet provides adequate ventilation to prevent overheating of the panel.
Materials
Use fire-resistant materials for cabinet construction.
Accessibility
The cabinet must be easily accessible for maintenance and inspection.
Aesthetics
Design the cabinet to blend in with the kitchen decor.
Co-op Board Approval
Will be required, as it alters the kitchen's appearance.
Inspection
The inspector may still not be happy with this setup.
Crucial Steps to Take
Contact Building Management IMMEDIATELY
You need to know: Where does the riser feed the apartment? Is it from below, above, or from a central distribution point? Are there existing electrical closets or other access points on the floor or in the basement? Are there any restrictions on electrical work in the building? What are the co-op board's requirements for electrical modifications? Building plans for electrical. Are there any known asbestos issues in the building?2.
Conduct a Thorough Site Survey
Trace the conduits: Where do they go? What circuits do they feed? (Use a circuit tracer.) Inspect the wall structure: What is behind the wall where you might want to relocate the panel? Check for other obstructions: Plumbing, ductwork, etc. Take detailed measurements: Of the panel, conduits, and surrounding areas. Visually inspect the existing wiring within the panel for any signs of damage or deterioration.3.
Consult with a Licensed Professional Engineer (PE)
Given the complexity of this project, it's highly recommended to consult with a PE who specializes in electrical design in NYC buildings. They can help you: Develop a compliant solution that meets all code requirements. Prepare detailed drawings for permitting and co-op board approval. Ensure the electrical system is safe and reliable.4.
Develop a Detailed Plan and Cost Estimate
Include all costs: Labor, materials, permits, engineering fees, co-op board fees (if any), potential asbestos abatement, and contingency funds for unexpected issues. Be transparent with the homeowner about the challenges and potential costs.5.
Obtain Co-op Board Approval
Present your plan to the co-op board and address any concerns they may have. Be prepared to make revisions to your plan based on their feedback.6.
Obtain Permits
Apply for all required permits before starting any work.7.
Hire a Qualified and Licensed Electrical Contractor (That's you, presumably)
Ensure the contractor has experience working in co-op buildings in NYC. Verify that they are properly licensed and insured.
Important Considerations
"Grandfathering" Doesn't Apply
The fact that the panel has been in this location for years doesn't make it legal. When the kitchen is being remodeled, it triggers the requirement to bring the electrical system up to current code.
Homeowner's Expectations
Manage the homeowner's expectations carefully. This is not a simple or inexpensive project. They need to understand the challenges and costs involved.
Walk Away if Necessary
If you determine that the project is too complex, too risky, or financially unfeasible, it's okay to walk away. As your retired colleague said, some jobs are just not worth the headache.
Regarding the Photo: The photo confirms the panel is in a highly inaccessible location. The four conduits entering from the bottom are the key constraint. The condition of the wiring within the panel should be carefully inspected.This is a complex project that requires careful planning, expertise, and communication. Good luck! Flag for review