User: brycenesbitt, Location: United States
Asked on: Tuesday, May 6, 2025 at 2:09 am EDT
Answered on: Tuesday, May 6, 2025 at 2:09 am EDT
Question: How does your area handle panel upgrades or replacements, in the vicinity of existing gas meters?I've got four buildings in one complex that all look basically like this:And yes, that's a 4" sewer line, surface mounted so to speak.In mine area the utility won't allow these subpanels to be replaced in place, nor allow a gutter to stub into the wall wires.---Background:The existing breakers are per unit 15 and 20A stab-lock. Units are 1500 square feet each.14 units plus laundry. Total upstream breaker size 100A stab-lok. Calculated demand 180A per NEC 220.82 for the group of 14.No reported problems with the electrical, and no history of main breaker trips. No tenant complaints.But insurance does not like it. And it's never clear if an FPE breaker will trip when needed.-----What would you be allowed to do in your jurisdiction? For those of you in PG&E service territory, what would you do hereother than run away and wash your eyes out carefully?
This is a tricky situation, and the proximity of the gas meter is a major complicating factor. Here's a breakdown of how different jurisdictions (and particularly those familiar with PG&E) might handle this, and potential solutions
General Considerations & Safety First:
Gas Meter Clearance
This is the
MOST important consideration. Do not work near a gas meter without properly trained personnel and appropriate gas detection equipment. Any electrical work near a gas meter needs to be done with extreme caution to prevent sparks, static electricity, or any potential ignition source. Gas leaks can be silent and deadly. NEC Compliance
Regardless of local interpretations, all work must comply with the National Electrical Code (NEC). Key sections to consider are:
110.26 Working Space
Adequate clear space and access around electrical equipment, especially panels. This includes vertical height, depth, and width.
312.1 Scope
Code rules on junction boxes, pull boxes, and conduit bodies, including gutters.
408.36(A) Phase Arrangement
The proper phase sequence must be maintained during any panel upgrade.
220 Branch Circuit, Feeder, and Service Calculations
Feeder capacity calculations.
230.40 Number of Service Entrance Conductors
Grounding conductors.
Permitting and Inspection
Always obtain the necessary permits and inspections. This will ensure the work is done safely and to code. The inspector's interpretation is what matters.
Utility Coordination
Contact the local utility (in your case, PG&E)
BEFORE starting any work. They may have specific requirements or restrictions for working near their equipment. They may even require relocation of the gas meter at your expense. Insurance Company Approval
Since the insurance company flagged this, keep them in the loop on the proposed solutions. They may have specific requirements beyond the code.
Jurisdictional Variations & Potential Solutions
Here's a breakdown of how different areas might approach this, keeping in mind that local interpretations vary significantly.
Jurisdictions that allow some in-place replacement (Less Common)
Strict Like-for-Like Replacement (If Allowed)
The easiest solution (though not ideal) is to replace the existing FPE panel with a new FPE panel of the exact same size and configuration. This might satisfy the insurance company in the short term, but it doesn't address the underlying issue of the unreliable breakers. This is
less likely to be permitted due to the risks associated with FPE. Important
Document everything meticulously. Include photos, model numbers, and a statement that the replacement was a direct, like-for-like replacement to address an immediate safety concern.
Why it's Problematic
This avoids code upgrades, but doesn't resolve the fundamental fire risk of FPE equipment.
Limited In-Place Upgrade (Rare, depending on inspector)
If the existing panel enclosure is large enough and in good condition, some inspectors might allow you to: Replace the guts of the panel with a modern, compatible breaker panel while keeping the existing enclosure. This requires careful selection to ensure proper fit and compliance. Replace the breakers only with UL-classified replacement breakers designed for FPE panels. This is not ideal, but it might be an option. Look for breakers specifically listed for use as replacements in FPE panels. This is still risky, as the fundamental design flaw of the panel remains. Do thorough research and consult with the manufacturer to ensure proper selection and installation. Replace the breakers with new breakers from the same manufacturer, to reduce the risk.
Why it's Problematic
Finding compatible parts can be difficult. It doesn't address the age or condition of the existing wiring. It might require significant modifications to the enclosure, which could be prohibited. Still doesn't address fire risk.
Jurisdictions that require panel relocation or significant rework (Most Common)
Panel Relocation
This is the
most common and safest solution. Move the panel to a new location that provides adequate working space, complies with NEC requirements, and is a safe distance from the gas meter. This is likely the only acceptable solution in areas with strict interpretations of the NEC. Challenges
Finding a suitable location can be difficult, especially in older buildings. This may require running new conduit and wiring, which can be expensive. You'll need to carefully plan the routing to avoid obstructions and maintain proper clearances.
Gutter/Junction Box and Short Conduit Runs
If relocation is impossible due to space constraints, you might be able to install a gutter or junction box outside the building, run short conduit runs to the existing panel location, and then replace the panel.
Conditions
The gutter/junction box MUST be properly sized for the number of conductors and splices. The short conduit runs MUST be properly sized and supported. All connections MUST be made with approved connectors and wire splices.
PG&E Specific - Most likely rejected
PG&E is VERY strict about extending service conductors. They don't like it, and they often won't allow it.
Challenges
This requires careful planning and execution. It can be difficult to make the connections watertight and aesthetically pleasing. It may not be permitted in all jurisdictions.
Complete Service Upgrade
In some cases, the only option may be a complete service upgrade. This involves replacing the entire service entrance, including the meter, service panel, and grounding system. This is the most expensive option, but it provides the greatest level of safety and reliability.
Conditions
Requires PG&E involvement, may require trenching, and can be disruptive to tenants.
Benefits
Modern, code-compliant service.
Specific to PG&E Service Territory
PG&E Consultation is Key
PG&E has very specific requirements for working on or near their equipment. Contact them
before doing anything. Service Entrance Relocation (Likely)
PG&E likely will require the service entrance (meter and panel) to be relocated to a code-compliant location, away from the gas meter and with proper clearances.
Upstream Capacity
Even if the calculated load is within the existing 100A service, PG&E may require an upgrade to a larger service if they deem it necessary for future expansion or safety.
Their rules are Paramount
PG&E's "Electric Service Requirements" manual dictates much of what you can and cannot do. Become familiar with it.
Working with PG&E
Start with a phone call to PG&E's service planning department. Be prepared to provide detailed information about the existing service, the proposed work, and the electrical load calculations. Be patient. PG&E's processes can be slow and bureaucratic.
Recommended Action Plan
Contact PG&E Immediately
Schedule a consultation to discuss the situation and get their specific requirements.2.
Contact the Local Building Department
Discuss the proposed work with the building inspector to determine what is permitted in your jurisdiction.3.
Engage a Qualified Electrical Contractor
Hire a licensed and insured electrical contractor experienced in working with PG&E and in similar situations. They can help you develop a plan that meets code requirements and PG&E's standards.4.
Develop a Detailed Plan
The plan should include: A detailed description of the existing electrical system. A description of the proposed work. Electrical load calculations. Drawings showing the existing and proposed locations of the panel and other equipment. A list of all materials and equipment to be used.5.
Submit the Plan for Approval
Submit the plan to PG&E and the local building department for approval.6.
Obtain Permits
Obtain all necessary permits before starting work.7.
Perform the Work
Carefully follow the approved plan and all applicable codes and regulations.8.
Inspection
Schedule inspections by PG&E and the local building department to ensure the work is done properly.
Addressing the FPE Breakers
Replacing the FPE Panel is the best and safest solution. The potential risk of the breakers failing to trip under fault conditions far outweighs the cost of replacement. Document, Document, Document
Keep meticulous records of all work done, including photos, permits, inspection reports, and manufacturer's specifications.*
Notify Tenants
Keep tenants informed of the work schedule and any potential disruptions.
In summary, this situation is complex and requires careful planning and execution. Prioritize safety, communication with the relevant authorities, and engagement of qualified professionals. Good luck! Flag for review