User: aledam, Location: Denmark
Asked on: Monday, July 14, 2025 at 3:28 am EDT
Answered on: Monday, July 14, 2025 at 5:55 am EDT
Question: Hello everyone,I have been struggling a lot in calculating the consequences of skin and proximity effects of power cables for our motor. As mentioned in the title, the motor runs up to 600HZ and 724A. It can reach 700Hz by applying field weakening, but the amperage is lower at that frequency.We are planning to use four multi-core cables in parallel, each of them with three phases + earth. I would expect to use either 95mmSQ or 120mmSQ of cables. This means that each cable should carry 181A. I am aware of the deratings due to the ambient temperature, but I am really struggling to find tables for the derating factors caused by the high frequency.Each of these multi-core cables is approximately 3 meters long. In this length:- 0.7meters are stripped to allow the connection to the sine-wave filter. The ambient temperature can reach 45-50 degrees Celsius, ventilated.- 2.3meters are NOT stripped, in an environment that can reach 55 degrees Celsius, ventilated.By stripped, I mean that the four cores (three phases + ground) are spread to attach them to the terminal of the filter. Each core still has its own isolation, but we are missing the external isolation that would group the cores together.How can I calculate the derating due to skin and proximity effect?Would the short length have a positive impact on the ampacity of the cable? Almost 25% of the cable is stripped, with a better heat dissipation. Would this stripped portion act as a "heat sink"?Thank you all for the replies!
You're right to be concerned about skin and proximity effects at 600 Hz, especially with those current levels and cable configurations. It's a complex problem, but let's break it down and address your questions.
Understanding the Effects Skin Effect
At higher frequencies, current tends to flow closer to the surface of a conductor. This reduces the effective cross-sectional area, increasing resistance and therefore heat generation.
Proximity Effect
The magnetic fields generated by adjacent conductors induce eddy currents in each other, further increasing the current density on one side of the conductor and further reducing the effective cross-sectional area. The effect is greater when conductors are close together, which is likely the case with multi-core cables.
Challenges and General Approach1. Standard Tables are Limited
You're correct. Most standard cable ampacity tables are based on 50/60 Hz operation. Derating factors for higher frequencies are not commonly found in these tables. You will likely not find any easy to apply data for multicore cables.2.
Complex Calculation
A precise calculation requires finite element analysis (FEA) or specialized software that can model electromagnetic fields and heat transfer. This is computationally intensive.3.
Simplifying Assumptions
Since a precise calculation is difficult, we need to make reasonable assumptions and use available information to estimate the effects.
Steps to Estimate Derating
Here's a structured approach to estimate the derating
A. Calculate the resistance and Inductance of the cable
Use a cable calculator: Some cable manufacturers provide calculators to determine resistance and inductance. These calculators normally do not take into account proximity and skin effects. Take the information from the datasheet
Datasheets often contain resistance and inductance values at 50/60 Hz.
Derive from measurements
Ideally, you should measure the resistance and inductance of the cable at the frequency of interest (600Hz). This can be done using an impedance analyzer.
B. Estimate the Skin Effect Derating
Skin Depth Calculation
Calculate the skin depth (δ) at 600 Hz using the following formula:δ = 1 / sqrt(π f μ σ)Where: f = frequency (600 Hz) μ = permeability of the conductor (approximately 4π x 10-7 H/m for copper) σ = conductivity of the conductor (approximately 5.8 x 107 S/m for copper)This will give you the depth to which the current effectively penetrates.
2.
Effective Area
Compare the skin depth to the radius of your conductor. If δ is much larger than the radius, the skin effect is negligible. (Unlikely in your case.) If δ is significantly smaller than the radius, the effective area is reduced. The cross-sectional area can be calculated as the circumference of the cable multiplied by the skin depth.3.
Increased Resistance
Calculate the AC resistance (Rac) using the reduced effective area. Rac will be higher than the DC resistance (Rdc). Calculate the ratio Rac/Rdc. This ratio provides an initial estimate of the increase in resistance due to the skin effect.
C. Estimate the Proximity Effect Derating
This is harder to calculate analytically without FEA. Here's a simplified approach and factors to consider:1.
Cable Configuration
The closer the cables and conductors are to each other, the greater the proximity effect. Consider the spacing between the cores within the multi-core cable and the spacing between the four multi-core cables.2.
Qualitative Assessment
The Proximity effects in multicore cable are generally significant and can be even stronger than the skin effect itself. They increase the current density on one side of each core.3.
Adjusting Derating
Increase the derating obtained with the skin effect based on your qualitative assessment of the proximity effects.
D. Total Derating
Combined Effect
Multiply all the derating factors together to get a final derating factor for the cable ampacity.
E. Apply Derating Factors
Ambient Temperature
As you mentioned, you also need to apply derating factors for the ambient temperature. Use the cable manufacturer's data for this.2.
Installation Method
Consider the installation method (e.g., in free air, in conduit, buried). This affects heat dissipation.
F. Ampacity Calculation
Determine Base Ampacity
Find the base ampacity of the cable size (95mm² or 120mm²) at 50/60 Hz and a standard ambient temperature (usually 30°C) from the cable manufacturer's datasheet.2.
Apply Derating
Multiply the base ampacity by all applicable derating factors (frequency, ambient temperature, installation method). This will give you the allowable current for your application.
Addressing Your Specific Questions Stripped Length Impact
The stripped section could act as a slight "heat sink." However, the dominant factor will be the increased resistance and heat generation due to skin and proximity effects. The heat dissipated in the stripped area will be conducted from the sections of the cable that are not stripped. I don't expect it to have a big impact on the current capability.
Short Length
A shorter length reduces the overall heat generation in the cable, but it doesn't eliminate the skin and proximity effects. The effects are still present at every point along the cable. Therefore, the fact that the length is short will not help to derate the cable.
Recommendations1. Consult Cable Manufacturers
The most reliable approach is to contact cable manufacturers directly. Provide them with your specific application details (frequency, current, voltage, cable configuration, ambient temperature, installation method). They may have data or be able to perform simulations to estimate the ampacity.2.
Consider Litz Wire
For high-frequency applications, Litz wire can significantly reduce skin and proximity effects. Litz wire consists of many thin, individually insulated strands that are twisted together. This increases the surface area of the conductor and minimizes eddy current losses.3.
Cable Spacing
Maximize the spacing between the multi-core cables if possible. This will help to reduce the proximity effect.4.
Forced Air Cooling
If possible, consider using forced air cooling to improve heat dissipation.5.
Over-Sizing
As a safety measure, consider over-sizing the cables.6.
Monitoring
After installation, carefully monitor the cable temperature to ensure it is within safe operating limits. Use thermal cameras to detect hotspots.7.
FEA Simulation
If you have access to FEA software and expertise, this is the most accurate way to determine the current carrying capacity of the cable.
Example Calculation (Simplified)
Let's say you're using a 95mm² cable with a base ampacity of 300A at 30°C.1. Skin Depth
Assume δ is calculated to be 2mm.2.
Effective Area
Assume the cable radius is 6 mm. Since δ < radius, the skin effect is present. Effective area is reduced.3.
Increased Resistance
The AC resistance is higher than the DC resistance.4.
Proximity Effect
Qualitatively assess that it adds another 20% derating factor.5.
Temperature Derating
Assume a 0.8 derating factor for 55°C ambient temperature.
Total Derating
0.75 (Skin Effect) 0.8 (Proximity Effect) 0.8 (Temperature) = 0.48
Allowable Current
300A * 0.48 = 144AIn this simplified example, the allowable current is significantly reduced due to the combined effects. Therefore, with a current of 181A, this is not adequate.
Important Disclaimer: This is a simplified example and should not be used for actual design. Always consult with qualified electrical engineers and cable manufacturers for accurate ampacity calculations and cable selection.This is a challenging problem, and a detailed analysis is essential to ensure the safe and reliable operation of your motor drive system. By following these steps and consulting with experts, you can make an informed decision about cable selection and derating. Good luck! Flag for review